Some Facts on Water Cooling....

Noxide · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: Some Facts on Water Cooling....

I found a site with some things to know about water cooling.
http://www.directron.com/watercool.html
I hope its of some help to any one looking into water cooling.
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[KoG]^weaZel · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject:

I sorry but that guy is a quack!! he gets a few points right but other than that he needs to do his homework on how things work. With just using watercooling you are NOT going to get BELOW ambient temperartures on your CPU.

fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

I think that article is quite old.......he mentions a lack of kits (there's several dozen on the market), nothing about phase-changing, and talks about using a submersed pump as the ideal solution.
Extremely old-school. TN has a better thread stickied, I believe.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject:

hey, good point guys, especially you weaz, i justy have one question for you though, i was just about to buy the danger den extreme 2 (2x120mm fan radiator) its a beast, will it cool any better then say a 1x 120mm fan? or is the dual size radiator just a waste of money.. because u can never get it below ambient would it help to have the bigger rad at al? thanks.
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[KoG]^weaZel · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 5:26 pm Post subject:

well the size of the radiator really depends on the amount of devices that are going to be cooled by it. And the heat output of those devices. To be honest with you the devices that should be cooled in a good WCing system should be the cpu, chipset, and GPU. The harddrives are sufficiently cooled by just a little airflow, so there is no need to add a waterblock to them. If you are looking to cool just the CPU, chipset and 1 GPU then a single 120mm Black Ice Pro will be fine. But if you are going to be cooling a rather hot CPU and/ or more GPU's then I would go for the dual 120mm unit. And it also varies by the amount of airflow that you are going to push over the radiator. The larger the radiator the less airflow needed = lower noise.
I use a dual 120mm in my rig and it has been more than enough. And I use a single 120mm in my wifes computer and has no troubles keeping it cool.
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fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

Agreed there ^^^^

One other thing to keep in mind is the pump rate. The Danger Den pumps look to be a bit on the anemic side, so they won't move the water as quickly. For myself, the ideal setup would be a Zalman Resorator with a higher-powered pump and a better waterblock for the CPU. Something I might do in the near future, when I start making some money again.
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Noxide · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject:

Noxide · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject:

I found something interesting ( i thought it was) to read about.
http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?caller=articles/submersion/submersion.html

Thats X-TREME COOLING!!!!!
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fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

[KoG]^weaZel · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject:

DangerDen pumps anemic??? They have almost always used some very high flow rate pumps. As most of their blocks benefit from the high flow rate and higher pressure. The DD12V-D4 is a very good pump. In fact is pretty much the same as the MCP-650, and also the PolarFLO TT pumps. They are all rated about 317 GPH.

But flow rate isnt everything. If you are flowing alot of water very fast it doesnt have enought time to soak the heat in the block. And also it doesnt have enough dwell time in the radiator for shed the heat. Its a very fine line of flow rate. Too much flow and you arent going to cool effectively and not enough flow and you get the same results. But when you are talking about flow rates you also have to take into account head pressure (also known as back pressure. As the head pressure rises flow rate drops.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject:

you guys wanna talk EXTREME cooling... well check this out.. if this isnt cool i dont know what is (meant as a punnnn) :)...
http://www.techpowerup.com/?3105
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[KoG]^weaZel · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:

I read about those the other day. And am very interested to find out how they will work.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject:

if you read the information and check out the pictures ull be able to get a pretty good idea of how they work... or did u mean how they perform? cause thats what ill be interested in... it seems as though they are forgetting one basiuc fact about cooling.. any sort of cooling like that (water, air... liquid metal etc) if it has a radiator then it all depends on the ambient temps.. unless they have some sort of freeon chemical stuff around the rad... i donno, but yeah it`ll be interesting to see how well it performs.. im sure it`ll out perform water because a trail of water will never conduct heat as well as a metal stick, we all know that.
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Noxide · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:

I'm really looking into the Peltier or TEC (thermo electric cooler) I hear they'er really
really good on cooling. only problem is condensation on the MoBo. Im still looking for reviews on that. I found some in http://www.octools.com under "Condensation"
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject:

yah, the only problem with those that i can see is you have to wire it completely yourself.. and you cant run it off of ur standard PSU... you need to buy one of those real power supplies which are meant for like amplifiers and big stuff... they require A LOT of juice.. ive seen ones around 300W!! thats rediculous.. lol .. but the temps.. the temps are wow... anyway thats for a huge case, a huge wallet, and a need for OC
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Noxide · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject:

I bought a TEC module today! I picked up one at Frys for $20.00 U.S. They bigger ones for like $25.00 and the largest for $39.00. They'er BAD-A$$!!! The cooling is instant.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject:

can u explain how to install those peltiers (peltier = TEC right?) and wut else do u need to make them work? dont u need an extra psu? thanks
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Noxide · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:

ok........ I have a 30x30x4.7mm TEC module (part# TEC1-7103. Its the size of a P4 no less or bigger.It works between 6.7-8.1volts DC. I have one of the smaller ones. Some of the bigger ones run 12-15.4 volts DC and the biggest i saw at fry was $39.99 U.S. and was rated 120 Watts! <Man thats alot. Well as for the one i have....Its been running for two hours on my PC. Its not installed yet. I have it on a heatsink & fan connected to the black/red wires on a molex plug. On my pc, I have an Antec 550w true power. Im running a TT Big Water water pump, 2 UV lights(a set of duel lights), 4 120mm antec fans(2 intake, 2 exhaust), an antec duel fan grafix card cooler, WD HDD, and my BFG 6800 Ultra. It still hasnt shut off or anything with everything on while playing Doom 3. All you do is put the + and - wire were they go and thats it! just make sure you dont go to high cuz you'll fry it. but mine is running at 5.6volts and its COLD...not cool but COLD! The heatsink is hot though. The cold side down on the CPU and the hot side up on the heatsink. (It goes in between CPU and HS/F) Use thermo paste or grease just like mounting a regular HS/F. Only down fall is that you will have to modify the mounting cuz it needs alittle more thickness space. Here is a link to it.
http://www.magaland.com/TECAN.pfd
or
http://www.magaland.com/tecmodules.html
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Noxide · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:17 am Post subject:

Oh yeah... only the big TEC need another PSU.
http://www.digit-life.com/articles/peltiercoolers/
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fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

There's two things to watch out for with that TEC.

First is condensation.......which is why most hardcore OC'ers don't use Peltier type coolers. The super-cold Peltier unit placed in a relatively warm case can collect moisture, and short out your proc. You have to make sure you use a Peltier that isn't overworking, and generating alot of heat off the topside. Plus, you'll need plenty of fans inside the case to move the hot air out.

The other is because most modern procs don't run at a continuous speed. (Abit/Asus guys take note). For example, newer Prescott P4's use throttling technology to "slow" the proc down when it doesn't need to be at full speed (i.e. Word documents, spreadsheets, 'net surfing). Peltier coolers are designed to be used at a constant temperature, so using one with a latest-gen P4 or AMD can cause problems in the form of condensation.

Running it outside of your case isn't a good test, it only shows that the unit is working. Your ambient house temp might change 1 degree C at most, so it's within tolerance of what a Peltier is designed to do. Procs can change temps by as much as 25 degrees C in a very short time (a second or two). What happens then is this.........you're playing Doom 3, at full settings, your proc is running hot, the TEC is pulling the heat off at an optimal level. You quit Doom 3, and your proc suddenly cools down from, say, 40 degrees to 20 degrees C. Since the TEC doesn't change its cooling properties, it can start to "freeze over" due to the sudden LACK of heat. It simply starts to freeze any moisture in the air, resulting in a layer of condensation.

I don't think I'd use one myself, the technology isn't designed for a general-use machine. In an industrial setting, where the machine is running the same thing constantly, with little to no difference in CPU load, sure, they'll work fine. Home machines just fluctuate in temperature too much for a Peltier to be really effective, safely.

TEC's were tried a few years back, before WC kits were available, and heavy modders were looking for a killer cooling solution, but they were pretty much dropped from use due to the inherent dangers of using one. Lots of procs blown, "gaps" between the peltier and the CPU that couldn't be lapped out due to the TEC's construction, voltage draws, etc.

Also note, that your TEC is running off your 3.3/5v lines, which are the main PCI/mobo power lines. Once you put it on your machine, and crank up the heat, you're liable to see alot of glitches, crashes, and the like.......it's not the VOLTS that matter, it's the AMPS that it draws at full power. Outside the case, it's just idling, not really drawing alot of power. Stick it on a proc, and you'll see the amp draw skyrocket.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:29 am Post subject:

i know that those are 2 big problems... and looking around on the interent.. swiftech offers a solution to the condensation problem actually: it the:
MCW5002-64T™ for AMD® "K8" processors, look it up on www.swiftnets.com under thermoelectric cooling.. and i agree with FNF there because those thigns require a lot of amperage... i consider myself to have a beast of a PSU and i was questiong my PSU's ability to handle one of these, heres my PSU's electric specs.
http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w049atx12v/w0049atx12v.htm
just scrolldown to the blue graph, my +5 puts out 50A max. my +3.3v is 28A and my +12v is 15A... now im not sure which rail these things run off of, but u say u connected it to ur 12v rail... well my 12V only offers 15A current... thats not too much.. and those peltiers will draw a lot more then that... so maybe u (and me if i get one) should consider hooking it up to the 5V rail instead? what do u guys think.
personally this one from swiftech seems like a pretty safe bet, but they reccomend using an auxilary PSU and a relay kit to turn it on at the same time as the system.

if you click here you`ll see more peltier kits from swiftech and a company called swintch or something... http://www.frozencpu.com/scan/se=Water%20Cooling/se=Peltiers%20Kits%20and%20Coldplates/mp=menu_search.html
as you can see, they all require lots of amperage..

does any one think i could run the swiftech one from my thermaltake 680w PSU? im not running a lot of other devices.. just standard stuff... and if i could.. should i connect it to black and yellow, or black and red? thanks.
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fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

Which line you have it hooked up to is dependent on the TEC itself. The one Noxide has goes from 3-6v, he's got it hooked to the 5v line (red wire is 5v, yellow is 12v).

As far as amp draw, the ones from Swiftech (the lower end ones) draw up to 28 amps! Definitely more power draw than your main PSU can handle, so a secondary PSU is needed. Those units are 12v, so you figure you have all your fans, hard drives, optical drives, and a couple of lights plugged into your 12v line already, and they're drawing 10-12 amps (and given that most PSU's range from 18-28 amps on the 12v line), you see the problem.

I'd go farther than "recommending" an aux PSU, it's absolutely NECESSARY.
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archaeic_bloke · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject:

that was my thoughts percisiley... can u think of any TEC available which would alllow you to avoid the whole AUX PSU thing?
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fussnfeathers · Lord of the Tweak Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 2763

Nope. They all have a high amp rating, even the little ones. It's just the way they're designed. Remember, this is 100 year old tech (believe it or not) and hasn't changed much........there's no circuitry in there to regulate power, it's basically just two wires pulling as much as they can from whatever power source they're plugged into, up to their max rating.
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[KoG]^weaZel · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject:

you also want to make sure you are using a big enough pelt to transfer the heat from your cpu. Because if you are using one that is too small it will actually cause your cpu temps to be higher than just using a good cooling solution.
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