No OC changes showing up -- madness sets in...

OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

First time OC. Read all the posts and the great step-by-step summaries. Wonderful site!

Here's my quandry: My OC bios changes don't appear to be changing my system's performance, at least not from what Windows, Sandra and WCPUID tell me. They are still showing the original P4 2.8 performance values and clock speed.

Am I missing something? Like some kind of "master switch" in the bios that will kick in my changes and start showing new perf numbers? Any help would be appreciated. Very sorry if this turns out to be a really dumb question or is a simple settting that I missed. (And yes, I am saving the bios changes after each settings change.)

My saved PRO875 bios settings:
CPU clock: 350MHz
3:2 (DDR266)
DRAM R/W timing: FAST
Mem timings: 2,5,2,2
AGP/PCI locked at 66/33/100 MHz
Default cpu, mem, & agp voltage settings

My System:
. P4 2.8 HT 800MHz FSB 512Kb
. HT active, multiple graphs shown in task manager
. DFI LanParty Pro875 (875P chipset)
. 1Gb (512Mb x 2) Dual Channel Corsair TwinX LL DDR400 PC3200
. ATI Radeon 9800 (non-pro) 128Mb
. stock heatsink & fan

Thanks in advance

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[TN] Nathan · ALMIGHTY PWNER! Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 7406

350Mhz FSB!!!!

Comon man, no wonder. How about NOT going overboard from the start and cranking your FSB to levels that aren't really obtainable.

And I really think you need to reread the 2.4C overclocking because I think you missed where we talked about voltages, and ram timings, and using only a stock cooler to overclock.

Reread these two threads.

http://www.tweaknews.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=568
http://www.tweaknews.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=703
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OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

Dude, I read them all. Weren't you just dissing out the other 2 guys for making even less insulting remarks?

Anyway... Yes the 350 is extreme, that's my point. It should've froze up or something. I originally started incrementing in 5mhz step as described, and again there were no changes in perf values. Then when I got up to about 250 and it didn't failed, I went on to dropping from DDR400 to 320, then down to 266. Nothing changed. Then I dropped the memory settings down so they were more aggressive. Again, nothing. At the end I sent the cpu clock up to 350 just to see if I could make it hang. That's when I became convinced that the changes I'm making are having zero impact after boot up.

Hence my original question: is there anything that would prevent the saved settings (any settings) from kicknig in? Like a protective bios state, etc.

[TN] Nathan · ALMIGHTY PWNER! Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 7406

First off, I never insulted you at all and in no way. In the other threads I was keeping the peace seeing that a flaming fest was brewing and I was cooling the crowd. So please don't take everything so emotional and actually read what advice I am offering.

I was stating the reality that your overclocking values with abolutely no voltage adjustment proves that you need to read the threads again. You need to fine tune your voltage, your timings and your FSB setting to overclock, not just the divider and the FSB.

The bios will reset itself to stock speeds if it detects a bad boot with settings that are not obtainable with your current settings. Hence why you are getting stock values when you boot into windows.

So please, as I politely asked before, reread those two threads on advice for voltage, timing, divider and FSB adjustments to obtain the best overclock from your 2.8C.

Oh, and BTW, maing your memory more aggressive by tightening up the timings doesn't mean it will handle a better overclock, it means the opposite that you will NOT be able to go higher because you are making your ram run the fast it can at 2-5-2-2.
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alexvdl · SirTweaksabit Joined: 05 Aug 2003 Posts: 311

Whoa! Hold up Sparky. Nothing that Nathan said in that post was remotely insulting.

As for protective BIOS state there is nothing ina ny of the myriad posts or reviews that I have read that talks of such a thing on that board.
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OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

I'm not getting through.

I read the posts. In fact, the post from CooLJoE on Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14 pm (at the end of page 7 on my browser window) has a very good summary of the process, starting with leaving the voltage and divider at their defaults, then incrementing the FSB in increments. After you max out, drop the divider, and max out again. Then drop the mem timings, then finally (LASTLY) up the voltage.

Do you agree with this sequence? If so, then here's my problem: I never got to the last step because the first steps had no impact. Also, I have read numerous times that you can get significant performance improvements without even touching the voltage. So why does that "prove" that I haven't read the threads? I have. It should be obvious that I have done a bit of reading just from my first post with the dead-on details of my settings and hardware config.

Look, I know you're going to repeat the same things to me. To your credit, you did say that the bios may default to a protective state (which I have not read anywhere about either for the pro875 board) but I'm skeptical about that since, I originally did get a bios lockup (checksum?) type of error when I made several changes at once and didn't follow the steps.

Anyway, I would love to see "any" kind of change. I will reload the "safe" defaults and start over. But at which point do you think I will see even a small change to my clock speed? Seeing something would at least allow me to proceed on the normal OC path you have described.

[TN] Nathan · ALMIGHTY PWNER! Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 7406

Ok, first off, raise your memory voltage to 2.8 or the highest available.

Drop your divider to DDR266 (3:2)

Raise your CPU voltage to 1.65v

lock your AGP:PCI:SATA to 66:33:100 etc..

Drop your memory timings to 3-8-4-4 or the highest number for the memory settings.

DRAM R/W timing: Normal

You should now beable to get a higher overclock.

Try at 250 and go up 5 Mhz increments on the FSB.
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CooLJoE · Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:49 pm Post subject:

I stand by what I gave out as steps to overclocking. You don't need to shove the voltages up or drop your memory timings at the beginning. Just raise the FSB.

OldTimer - Try this. Reset everything to defaults. Then go back and lock the AGP/PCI. Next go to the FSB and put it to 210mhz. Save settings and restart. At the boot screen, see if the ghz speed has changed. Even check in windows if your want. It should show 2.94ghz. If this works, then go back to the bios and up it another 10mhz. Keep doing this and checking to see if the speed changes (upward of course).

If the machine is rebooting, staying on a black screen for awhile, and then finally showing a picture, its likely that its resetting the bios to safe numbers.

But make sure you check the speed that the BIOS reports during POST.
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OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

** Long Post Warning **
First of all, I want to say thanks to Nathan and CooLJoE. You guys did help me a lot, even if I misinterpreted things in the beginning.

After much research, I was finally able to get my Pro875 to see the bios changes I was making. The problem was the version of the bios I was using. But not my fault. This mobo has a nice little tool called RadarSync to update your bios from Windows, much like the MS Windows update facility. Unfortunately, when I first got the board running, it sync'ed my bios up with a version from back in May, not the latest bios release (or its features).

I think they also may have fixed some of the issues that caused me to not be able to OC in the old version. I had to do a manual bios update using the instructions on their web site to get the new bios activated.

But it was worth it. Not only did it fix my issues, this version also has a new "System Bandwidth" setting (replacing the old DRAM R/W timing option?) which lets you determined which type of performance you are looking to get.

From the DFI support site:

"The major difference of BIOS dated 22-Jul-2003 against BIOS is the added feature of system bandwidth and newest kernels. If you are going to adjust the DRAM timing, please enter BIOS setup menu to set the system bandwidth to "HPS3". If you choose LPS1 through LPS3 or MPS1 through MPS2, system will not allow user changing the DRAM timing. You can refer to the FAQ "How to effectively utilize the setting of system bandwidth?" at URL http://www.dfi.com.tw/Support/mb_faq_us.jsp?FAQ_ID=2080&SUBMITTED=No&PAGE_TYPE=US to change the setup of system bandwidth."

This new bios also shows a recalculated multiplier setting as well as a precalculated overall clock speed as soon as settings are changed. Nice improvement.

For those interested, here's some additional info I found regarding issues with the bios not being reset after a blowout:

From AnandTech:
"The only downside about FSB overclocking with the PRO875 is that recovering from too high a FSB value isn’t all that good. Clearing the CMOS via jumper doesn’t do the trick; you must uninstall and reinstall battery as well. But there were no issues at 282MHz FSB while stress testing within Windows, and all cold and warm boots worked just as they should (no non-POST issues like we had using aggressive timings with Corsair TwinX modules)."
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1829

Another Site:
"We did encounter one strange issue with the BIOS revision that shipped with this board, but DFI somewhat remedied the situation. With the initial BIOS, if we overclocked the system too far, we had to remove the CMOS battery to reset the FSB. The Clear CMOS jumper didn't restore the board to default speeds. With the most recent BIOS release, should you overclock the board too aggressively, upon re-booting the processor's default FSB will be used."

But I'm not entirely sure this is true, since in both bios versions, the help text on the FSB setting says to hold down the INS key during power up if the system hangs after making changes and it will reload safe defaults (which does appear to work).

Anyway, in retrospect, my problem was not getting the values cleared, it was in getting the system to actually use my changes. The manual bios upgrade is what fixed it for me.

Thanks again for your help. I'm now getting 3.384mhz with a FSB of 241 w/ fairly low power consumption (1.57v) and its rock stable using Sandra tests. I'll get a bigger fan an play with it some more tomorrow.

Thanks again guys.

[TN] Nathan · ALMIGHTY PWNER! Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 7406

CooLJoE · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:07 am Post subject:

Well, we all have our own methods. And I chose the learning method. You don't learn much when you just shove the settings up to the sky and attempt OC'ing from there.

With my method I learned where my memory stands as far as its max mhz speed before needing a divider (amazingly, it got to 230mhz - 460mhz DDR - before needing the 5:4 divider). Plus I learned the limit of the processor before needing more voltage. Can't say that your method will teach the same values. I just find that learning about your memory/board/cpu is more valuable than just jumping to the top.

Sorry if it seems harsh. The attitude is a result of what I got from your post to me. So if you weren't intending to be harsh....then don't take mine as such either.
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OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

Nathan:
I tried the exact settings you list, but my box becomes unstable and hangs using the Sandra memory checks. In fact, I got what I got so far only by spending a couple of hours tweaking and bringing the FSB down to 240 with different mem timings. For example, you asking me to relax the mem settings (raising to the largest numbers available), yet I got most out of my system performance-wise by using more aggressive mem timings (setting them to their lowest numeric values). From my reading, I thought one of the goals of good OC'ing was to get some good memory (mine is among the best) then push the timings faster. Currently my box cannot even take 1 mhz more on the FSB before freezing in Sandra or causing flakyness elsewhere. But at 240, it seems very solid. I will try again, but my mobo and bios may have more to do with it than anything. I will retry your way using each of the available "System Bandwidth" settings from LPS3, LPS2, LPS1, MPS1, MPS2, MPS3, and HPS3. Also, I'm using a P4 2.8, not a 2.4c, though I'm not sure if that matters.

CooLJoE:
I will retry your approach as well, but with the same caveat: I've got a P2.8, a Pro875 mobo with that funky new "system bandwidth" setting. I too am scratching my head a little, since I have great twin-matched LL Corsair sticks (among the best I could find/afford) which should be able to take the abuse.

. . .
No worries. Neither approach is dead yet. I will post numbers again when/if I can push it a little higher. I also want to replace the stock fan, as I think that will help minimize the CPU from cooking prematurely when I do get my numbers higher.

Thanks

OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

BTW Nathan, you keep saying to "Raise your CPU voltage to 1.65v", however my LanParty Pro875 board only increments in 0.05V increments, from a base of 1.47V. Thus I either have to pick 1.62V or 1.67V, but can't select 1.65 since I don't have that level of voltage granularity. (I thought you were also using the Pro875 board, no??)

Also, at my top FSB setting, I tried incrementing the voltage in 0.05mv steps all the way up to 1.72V and nothing would get my board to be stabile beyond FSB 241, just more heat.

Its probably my memory timings that are holding me back, but on that DFI link I posted describing the "System Bandwidth" setting, they don't explain it very well (for a newbie like me):

One the one hand they say: "If user needs higher performance, he can select MPS1, MPS2 or MPS3. HPS3 will get the best performance if your peripherals are all qualified ones."
But then they also say: "With the default setting at 'LPS1' it [provides for] optimized performance as well as the best stability in all aspects. ...If user cares much about overclocking (OC) ability, he can change the setting to LPS2 to get better OC ability or just select LPS3 for the best OC ability that this board can provide. Please be reminded that good ventilation and cooling system will make the OC more satisfactory. please also make sure that your peripherals are are overclockable."

So which is best for me? HPS3 on the one end or LPS3 on the other? Don't know, but I've currently dropped it down to LPS3. At one point when I tried the HPS3 setting, it didn't seem to help me past my barrier.

Anyway, again, more testing & tuning will come.

CooLJoE · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:42 am Post subject:

Sorry if it seemed like I was pushing my method on you OldTimer. Its just that I prefer this method and find it better when you want to learn the limits of your board/mem/cpu. However, the best method is the one you find more comfortable (so long as its a working method).

That System Bandwidth setting sounds odd. I wish they didn't add a setting that needed a manual to explain. I haven't updated my BIOS and now I'm hesitant to do so. Maybe I'll take a look at how it works later on.

Using the memory with aggressive timings will net performance, but with OC'ing, you will limit your max speed. OC'ing is about performance, and you do have to sacrifice some things to get other things. The relaxed memory timings will be made up for in bus speed once you get up there. Thats why I don't mess with my timings until I actually need to. I mean, I found out that my Kingston Value Ram (aka, cheap stuff) that was default of CL3 at 400mhz (pc3200 ram) could do 450mhz at that CL3 setting. I think somewhere around 460 was when it became unstable.

Your ram shouldn't have a hard time doing CL3 at 450mhz, especially if mine can. BTW, if its not clear, 450mhz would be 225mhz in the bios. With the timings set to SPD, you should get atleast a bit over 400mhz. I imagine you could do 400mhz CL3 when the divider is 3:2. That would get you a 1200mhz bus speed , aka 3.6ghz.
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[TN] Nathan · ALMIGHTY PWNER! Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Posts: 7406

OldTimer · TweakNOOB Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 11

Thank you both for your comments.

CooLJoE · Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:49 am Post subject: